I wanted a bit of controversy to liven things up around here, and my last post sure delivered! Breastfeeding in public is about as controversial as it gets, and the comments that I’ve gotten (both here on the blog and via Facebook) have been interesting to say the least.
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UPDATED TO ADD: The first post has turned into a four-part series, with this being Part Two. The entire series is as follows:
Uninhibited Breastfeeding in Public: Reclaiming My Womanhood From Perversity
Uninhibited Breastfeeding in Public: Is It Obscene and Inappropriate?
Uninhibited Breastfeeding in Public: Not Worth the Controversy?
Uninhibited Breastfeeding in Public: What If It Makes Others Uncomfortable?
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I tend to suppress my soapbox-ishness most of the time because I find that most people in our culture (with some exceptions of course) are simply incapable of rational debate and logical thought. If that sounds judgmental to you, then feel free to believe that I’m referring to you as the exception 😉
Sometimes though, there’s a fire in me on a particular issue that I just need to express, and where else but on my blog? It’s my own personal space to share my thoughts and opinions as I see fit, and others are perfectly free to come and go as they please. Nothing here is required reading. I only ask that if you share your thoughts in response (which I LOVE) that you do it respectfully and with thoughtfulness (and by that I mean that you actually think through what you say). A debate about a controversial issue is not really the place to spout off emotional opinions without rational thought or basis. It’s just not helpful. I’m not going to run down the list and tell you which comments I thought were not very well rationalized. I will just let my own responses speak for themselves.
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{Each bolded quote is a comment that I received (either here on on FB) specifically regarding this post. Please note that all comments are cut and pasted exactly as they were written, including any spelling/grammatical errors. Below are my responses.}
“This article fails to take into account that a woman pursuing her right to openly breast feed is forcing someone else to give up their right to be in that same public place without having to look at another woman’s breast. Just because the woman nursing doesn’t view her body as private or sacred, doesn’t mean others need to be forced to see it. Many woman do. All this article is talking about is men being aroused or offended. But there are plenty of woman out there who are. Or perhaps, a mother who has not yet had that talk with her young child. In aggressively asserting your right to nurse, you are forcing others to give up theirs.”
Yikes! Where to begin?
First of all, I do view my body as sacred.
{I also think it’s completely unfair and irrational to assume that a woman who breastfeeds without covering doesn’t view her body as sacred. She perhaps has a greater view of the sacredness of her body and what it is capable of doing than does the average person who thinks that teeny-tiny bikinis are ok but breastfeeding is obscene}.
It doesn’t logically follow that just because my body is sacred that I must therefore keep it completely covered. Unless of course you agree with the extremist Muslim groups who force women to wear burqas.
I also would say there are certain parts of my body that I consider to be private, but not all parts. I do wear normal clothing, like pants and shirts, just like most everyone else, but I don’t cover my entire body from head to foot. I don’t wear a burqa, or walk around covered from head to toe in any way. I will have to completely disagree that this means I don’t view my body as sacred.
Also, if I’m being honest this comment kind of made me laugh. There is no such thing as the “right to be in a public place without having to look at another woman’s breast”. There are public nudity laws, but breastfeeding is legally exempt from those. It is, in fact, the complete opposite from the so-called “right to not see another woman’s breast”.
You are sadly misinformed if you think that you have any sort of “right” to not see a mother breastfeeding her baby without covering up. The law protects the exact opposite, and says that asking or demanding that a mother cover up or hide while breastfeeding is in fact discriminatory and illegal.
In Canada the right to breastfeed in public is protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, with specific legislation in Ontario and British Columbia, and support from the provincial Human Rights Commissions. There are also numerous cases of companies harassing women while breastfeeding in their establishment only to have to backpedal and publicly apologize later. “The Ministry of the Attorney General of British Columbia states it this way, “Nursing mothers have the right to breastfeed their children in a public area, and it is discriminatory to ask them to cover up or breastfeed somewhere else.”(source)”.
In the United States, the right to breastfeed is even more explicitly protected, with specific legislation having been passed in a majority of the states declaring a mother’s right to breastfeed in any public place without harassment or discrimination.
In this comment, the word “force” (or some variation) was used three times, with the word “aggressive” thrown in for good measure. I find this absurd as well, to be honest. No one is forcing you to eat at that restaurant, or shop at that store, let alone look at the breastfeeding mama and babe. No one put a gun to your head and demanded you go sit in the coffee shop and stare at the woman sitting there quietly breastfeeding her baby. You are perfectly free to leave or look away (or as has been so eloquently stated before: “put a blanket over your own head”). You do in fact have that “right”.
I’m not entirely sure what this commenter was getting at when she said that some women are aroused or offended too. My post mostly referred to men because they are more commonly the ones that have issues with seeing breastfeeding. If a woman was aroused or offended by it I’d say the exact same things to her as I would to the male population. Was there a further point here that I’m missing?
The last thing from this comment that I will address (it was quite the comment…) is this “a mother who has not yet had that talk with her young child”. I’m assuming that the implication is that somehow a young child would be harmed psychologically by seeing a woman breastfeed, or by finding out that breasts are not just a sex toy. I’m not sure what “talk” she is referring to, but perhaps it would go something like this: “Honey, now that you are nearly a teenager and your view of breasts and a woman’s body has been firmly twisted and distorted by the hyper-sexualized and pornographic culture and media, I think it’s time to tell you that breasts are actually… um… also used for nourishing babies…!!!” I can imagine how disturbing that would be. Personally I would rather contribute to the normalization of breasts being used for breastfeeding and fight against the devaluation of women as sexual objects.
Do you want to know the most ironic and ridiculous thing? I clicked on this particular person’s public facebook profile (not someone I know at all), and there were photos posted of her wearing a tiny bikini at the beach. If she wants to fabricate out of thin air the right to not see other women’s boobs, then perhaps she shouldn’t be flashing hers all over a public beach, not to mention wearing extremely low-cut tops that show a ton of cleavage. Is it just me, or is that the most head-scratching representation of hypocrisy that I’ve seen in a very long time? Realistically though, she is sadly also a victim of our culture’s irrational pronouncement that nearly-naked bodies at the beach are okay, and yet breastfeeding in public is not.
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PLEASE NOTE: the comments + my responses have gotten to be way too long to put in a single blog post, so I am now tackling them one or two at a time. This was the first one. Next up is the assertion that we should stop worrying about such silly things and focus on “real problems like world hunger instead”…
Idontwanttotellyoumyname
Thank you for thoughtful and reasoned discourse regarding this sensitive topic. I am a woman but not a mother and no intention to become one ever. I definitely haven’t got what it takes to make such sacrifice. Though I have no interest in limiting the freedoms of or criticizing other women, particularly mothers, I feel compelled to chime in here.
I find public breastfeeding offensive. There, I said it. It makes me uncomfortable and I don’t want to see it. In response to “it’s natural,” well, the same could be said of defecating, which I also don’t want to watch anyone do. Nor do I want to watch two people engaged in sexual congress, even if they love each other very deeply.
We as a society have determined that certain standards apply for the greater good. Said standards include covering up certain “natural, beautiful” body parts and partaking in certain “natural, beautiful” activities such as urination, defecation, and copulation only in private. Adhering to those standards help us all coexist peacefully and respectfully. This is not about limiting your rights; it’s about being respectful of others.
I don’t want to watch you breastfeed for the same reason you don’t want to watch me defecate. We’ve agreed as a society that breasts are one of three areas (along with buttocks and genitals) that should remain covered. Counter arguments such as barely-there bikinis, etc. fall down under the slightest scrutiny. No one in my office is wearing a bikini nor do I see any out on the street as a matter of routine. I live in a large, liberal city, so there are plenty of scantily clad people, BUT, truthfully, whenever there is a barely-there outfit, worn by man or woman, it provokes stopping, gasping, staring and possibly remarking. Why? Because it is not the norm. It is not. People are still struck by hyper-sexuality. We’ve agreed on standards put in place to minimize our discomfort (collective as well as individual) in public places. Why isn’t the comfort of others good enough reason for nursing mothers to be discreet?
Beth
First of all – you say you find public breastfeeding offensive, but then at the end you asked for them to be discreet. Which is it? Does discreet = never breastfeeding in public?
The one and only purpose of breasts is to feed babies, biologically. Just because our culture has a sexual hangup with breasts, and typically covers them up doesn’t make them inherently sexual. It simply means that our culture has assigned that meaning to them. Which, sure – means that most people walk around with shirts on. I do too. And guess what – even when I feed my baby in public, I’m not standing on a table-top topless, shimmying my chest at strangers and causing a ruckus. Ha. No, I simply sit down somewhere comfy, lift one side of my shirt like 5 inches while baby cradles in my lap, and let his hungry little mouth latch on and begin to eat. My shirt is like a quarter inch from his mouth, and to be honest – I’ve often breastfed a baby in the middle of a room of people, and when I was done and said he was done eating – they said they hadn’t even noticed that I had been feeding him in the first place.
I’ve nursed four babies now, for a total of around 84 months of my life.
I show less breast than a socially-acceptable level of bikini boob. If it’s socially acceptable for women to wear a bikini at the beach (that they don’t wear bikinis at the office is irrelevant – it’s all about appropriate levels in appropriate settings), then why isn’t it acceptable for a woman to breastfeed in public? That’s a SHAMEFUL double standard.
Breasts are there for feeding babies. They happen to also be appreciated sexually (as are slender waists, chiseled jawlines on a man, legs, stomachs, eyes, lips, and beyond), but they’re not inherently so, like genitals. The purpose of genitals is literally copulation and reproduction. The purpose of breasts is to feed offspring.
Furthermore – EVEN IF a woman is less discreet than I choose to be. EVEN IF she lifts her shirt higher than I do, and if you see a slip of nipple or more breast tissue (AKA cleavage)… it’s still about feeding a baby, and put quite simply – a baby’s right to eat its meal trumps your right to not feel uncomfortable due to socially-constructed archaic views about a woman’s body.
There are lots of things that make me feel awkward and uncomfortable that I’d rather not see. And there’s an option for that – it’s called “stay home” (or, alternatively, be an adult and get over it). Babies not being allowed to eat = not an option.
P.S. A lot of bad crap in history was justified by the “___ makes people uncomfortable, so…” and “it’s for the comfort of the collective society” argument. Black and white segregation in the U.S and the Holocaust come to mind. And no, before anyone jumps all over me – there’s no comparison being made here other than to point out the the basis of your argument sucks.
I assume you won’t see this, since you used a fake name and a fake email address, but I’ll leave it here for others.
Have a great day.
pregnant test
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Christy
Just found you blog & I love reading all the interesting posts, especially this one. I am so fond of those who stand up for what they believe is the best. This area is one that I am particularly passionate about. Thank you for sharing!!
suzannah {so much shouting, so much laughter}
oh mercy, those arguments alleging a “right” to be protected from being offended make me crazy. a baby has a right to eat, a woman has a right to breastfeed in public, and anyone who is uncomfortable has the right to avert her eyes! for the love.
nursing covers are a great option for women who are acclimating to breastfeeding or who prefer them for whatever reason. i used one with my first child, and it helped me feel comfortable nursing in public. with my second, i didn’t use it, and i do resent that people try to shame others into using them. there is no *right* way to nurse a baby in public. i do wish we’d give each other more freedom to make our own decisions! great series.
lilmarsbar
Beth, I totally agree with you. The other thing about this whole discussion that gets me is are do *all* these people who claim that breatfeeding will cause their brothers in Christ to sin *actually* know of real-life situtations where a brother in Christ admitted to struggling with lust over seeing a woman nursing her child? I think everyone keeps focusing on the hypothetical ‘what ifs’ to the point that we’re not actually asking does this *actually* happen? I’ve yet to hear of one single instance where a man admitted that seeing a woman’s boobs while she was nursing her baby turned him on. Maybe, somewhere in the great beyond, there is such a man. But I’ve never met such a one 🙂
My biggest issue is that we hardly hear Christians defending intelligent design. When are we going to start respecting how God has designed us and stop letting the media and medical professionals tell us a bunch of crock about what is ‘okay’ whether or not it honors God’s design for our bodies? This issue also comes up when we talk about epidural and pitocin usage in birth (I’m not referencing the rare instance of women who use it because an urgent situation is becoming emergent – but let’s face it: most of these drugs are dolled out like candy with no acknowledgement for the mounds of research that proves that these things directly contravene the way God intended for our bodies to work in labor and delivery). So I’m not surprised – at all – when I see people continually ignore God’s design for breastfeeding.
And I didn’t have an easy time breastfeeding, so I’m no hypocrite. After a 56-hour long labor free of pain-killers, we unfortunately ended up having to deliver Annalise by c-section because she was in legitimate distress. She was in the NICU for two days after. There was no bonding time after birth because she was experiencing a lot of respitory distress. I didn’t get to hold her till 6pm the next day. And breastfeeding was an abolute gong show because of it. Long story short – after one whole month of going to a breastfeeding clinc 45 minutes away for 4 days per week (usually four hours at a time so we could do at least two feedings), pumping milk like a maniac and feeding it to her via a tube by finger [then later, as a lactation aid at my breast to help her respond to flow and at least try to latch on] she FINALLY latched on her own. It took a whole month of professional support before it started to work. And it was very tiring when she wasn’t nursing at the breast because we couldn’t give her a bottle so had to finger feed (or chances are good that she would’ve never nursed). I never had a great milk supply either, so I was on herbs to increase milk supply the whole eleven months of nursing. But at some point, you either believe in God’s design or you don’t.
So it really gets me when some women don’t have any of these barriers…and then we socially marginalize women who want to and CAN nurse so much that they start feeling they can’t breastfeed in public. Just awful – and worse, to me, is that Christians come up with all these ‘godly’ sounding reasons for why mother’s should not feed their child as God intended. Alternative methods of feeding our babies have their place…but they’ve unfortunately become so nomalized that most people will not admit that bottle feeding, finger feeding, an nursing at the breast are NOT equal as ways to feed a child. This normalization of these alternatives it at the root of much of these discussions (ie. why can’t that mom just use a bottle instead of nursing in public? Implication = those forms of eating are equal. Sad that these alternatives are eroding aproaches to feeding based on God’s design for mom and baby!!!)
That’s my rant for the day…
Margi
I just love love LOVE this continued discussion! I agree that often our shame from not being able to breastfeed (as with my first one) drives us to fight and defend, even if deep inside we think it’s a beautiful thing! Now with 2 successfully breastfed babies behind me and another on the way, I like to think I’m compassionate to both sides but I have to admit, I simply don’t get the “hide or cover” type of breastfeeding! I just hate how America has sexualized breasts to the point that many won’t breastfeed simply for that reason. I grew up in an extremely conservative culture and many of my Mennonite peers go to formula early on because breastfeeding “isn’t modest” and I think it’s sad.
Naomi
I wish I had the time and thoughtfulness to reply but I don’t. But I will say that all of this has encouraged me to breastfeed uncovered for the first time in public…tomorrow I leave town for a shopping trip with a friend and my mom and I am leaving my nursing cover behind! 🙂
ps. as an interesting note to the comment being discussed on your blog…in Ontario is it legal for women to be completely topless….so her right to not look at breasts is no ‘right’ at all…at least in Ontario
sadie
In Portland, OR, it is legal for anybody to be completely naked. There is a famous naked bike ride around the city that happens every year.
Lola
that’s like my dream sadie… ok, maybe not. Bike riding naked seems awkward 🙂
Katherine
Love your thoughts in response in this post, sad that woman breastfeeding would be seen as not seeing their bodies as sacred, that doesn’t sit well with me.
So I was just chatting with my husband about his thoughts on woman breastfeeding in public cause I have never really asked him, he has never had any problem with me breastfeeding however I wanted or to what age, he is happy for our baby to have the best nourishment possible. But he said that it never bothers him, it’s just that sometimes the girl doing it will make it awkward for him by giving him a ‘look’ if he comes into the nursery, or upon someone breastfeeding somewhere, like he shouldn’t be there and he said that bugs him, especially if she is covered up, why should she care? Probably more telling about the woman’s own view of what men are ‘thinking’ or whatever, but it is an interesting thought that we do have the power to make it seem natural, or to make others feel uncomfortable by our own actions toward them when we are in the midst of breastfeeding. I am always amazed at some woman’s ability to breastfeed uncovered while in the midst of a crowd and they truly do make it look like the most natural thing in the world and you hardly think twice about what they are doing. (Does that make sense?) It’s a beautiful thing.
Marissa
I love what you say about how we have the power to make it seem natural or awkward with our own actions….I think that I was definitely a lot more awkward with my first which I am okay with as I think that most aspects of motherhood was a little more awkward for me but honestly with Cecily, I just did what I was doing especially once I left the milk spraying everywhere stage as she got older. This is a little different than being uncovered but I also felt much more awkward about nursing Aneliese as she became a toddler and I often felt like others were judging, but with Cecily I no longer cared and oddly I never felt like anyone cared at all.
Chris
I think it is time for another male view-point. Thank you Katherine for asking Brian what he thinks … I agree completely with him. The only reason I feel uncomfortable when a woman decides to feed her baby is when they give me a look as if I should either leave the room, or if I don’t leave that I am some sort of pervert. Strangely I have had this happen regardless of whether or not she is using a cover. I think breastfeeding is a completely natural and beautiful thing. I remember when Isaac was born being amazed that God not only gave women the ability to provide for everything a growing baby needs in the womb, but that he also gave women the ability (and privilege) to provide everything the baby needs after birth. To be told that one should cover this up, or make it shameful or un-natural in any way seems ridiculous to me (and perhaps a slap in the face to the God that gave that privilege). I have great respect for women who decide to feed their babies publicly – I see no reason why they should be told they need to cover up or hide in a corner, and it is out of this respect for them that I gladly respect their privacy and look away.
Chris
Just for the record I don’t have a lack of respect for those that do decide to cover while they nurse or go in to a room privately – there are many reason why they may have chosen to do so.
sadie
and did you know that w/ complete disregard for me and my sugar addiction, there are good christian people who will eat chocolate brownies, cookies, ice cream and cupcakes RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME?!
sadie
how’s that for a thoughtful response?
Beth
love it. again with the quotable brilliance. seriously 🙂
sadie
talk about a stumbling block! Last night I stumbled face first into a piece of Nilgris peanut butter pie!
sadie
Beth, that picture is beautiful, and shows as much skin as you would if you were wearing a tube top. Now this is completely my opinion, but I’m convinced that deep down, the argument about BFing without a cover being offensive has very little to do with the amount of skin showing, and more to do with having to SEE the baby suckling from his mother’s breast. Having to see breasts (even if you don’t actually SEE the breast) being used for something completely UNsexy scoffs in the face of our N. american culture and confuses everything we’ve been told, both outright and subconsciously about breasts.
Lola
I think you are exactly right Sadie.
Katrina
Well said Sadie! You just put into words exactly what I think. People have problems with the actual ACT of breastfeeding not with seeing breasts which is SO obvious when you take a quick look at our culture.
Beth
I agree completely! Well said! I just think that in order for those who think it’s about seeing breasts to really see the truth, their position must be revealed as being completely ridiculous and nonsensical. I know not everyone will see reason, but I can hope! I also think that if I can convince just one person, that it is worth all the time and passion I am investing in writing on this. Cultural taboos and prejudices are changed one person at a time. That’s why I’m writing.
I may quote you in my next post 🙂
Marissa
I think that you are so very right Sadie…I have actually talked with other women who believe that nursing takes away the “sexy” factor of their breast or worry that it will, therefore don’t wish to breastfeed.
Kate Selig
Now I have to go back and see all the new comments on your original post! This whole issue frustrates the heck out of me, to be honest. I vacillate between laughing at the people who argue that breastfeeding in public or without covering up is going to cause my “brother to sin” or is otherwise offensive or gross, and just getting incredibly angry about the whole thing. This is one issue where I actually steer clear of debate most of the time. I breastfeed my kids in public, I respond gently but firmly when people comment (this has actually been rare), I never, never cover up, and I always answer children’s questions.
Cracks me up when small children come up with their complete lack of social filter and shove their head right on where the action is and then ask, “What is he doing?!”. My typical response is, “He’s drinking some milk. Cool, hey? Maybe you used to eat like this too, you should ask you mom.” And, usually, the mother is completely mortified and is frantically trying to get her kid to leave me alone. When, really, I couldn’t care less about a small person expressing their natural curiosity. Those mothers probably hate me.
Anyway, rah, rah for you, and for all the other mothers out there who nurse their children when their children need it without hiding or being ashamed or worrying about what other people might think. 🙂 I stand united with that group of mothers who simply do what they need to do, and who, by doing so, are helping to normalize an essential act that has somehow become optional in our society.
Also, although this is perhaps a little strong, a part of me also says, “Shame on you, you women who are not only failing to support breastfeeding, but who are contributing to the shaming and blaming of mothers who are simply nourishing their children the way we are created to.” I frustrates me to no end that it is women who tear down other women. We should be each other’s strongest allies, and instead, we walk around making snide comments and expressing a myriad of other emotions* by shaming the very people we should be encouraging. Other Mamas.
*another potentially controversial thought, but I do think that some of the women who are so anti-breastfeeding, or anti-breastfeeding in public are in fact expressing guilt over the fact that they did not breastfeed, or anger over the fact that they themselves were shamed for breastfeeding.
It’s interesting to see this discussion unfold. Thanks for hosting it, Beth.
Lola
I think it sometimes is regret about not breastfeeding. That makes me so sad.
I love it when kids come up to me and ask what I’m doing. I find that usually the moms are nervous until they see that I’m not awkward or embarrassed and then they relax about it. But I run in a pretty crunchy group 🙂
Beth
What a beautiful articulation, Kate. Thanks for this eloquent, well-reasoned, and passionate support!!